ZaZ's english thread

434

欢迎ZAZ，很喜欢你的战术，顺便问一下你的 blue 3.3 左右两个DW用什么样的球员比较好

贝利人称小阿芒

我有两个问题想问问：
1、为什么CA、PA（current ability、 potential ability）不高的迪马科（Federico Dimarco）会那么强，我一开始以为是因为他的角球（Corner）能力和远射能力，但是当我取消了他罚角球和远射的权利时，他在攻防两端依旧有很两眼的表现。其他我认为现实中应该比他优秀的球员，如阿拉巴（David Alaba）、罗伯森（Andrew Robertson）等都没有这样两眼的表现。即便这些优秀球员的数值都比迪马科高。
2、似乎你喜欢使用全能组织核心，但是我对其没有一个具体的概念，我使用的人评分普遍较低，即便大比分获胜的对局也只有6.9分。这个位置的球员他具体作用和优先考虑的属性应该是什么呢？是否低级别联赛中不适合使用这个位置，因为大部分的球员CA并不高？

I tried to translate by Baidu （Chinese version of Google）, but I didn't think it was accurate enough， maybe google is better.
By the way, welcome to PLAYGM, happy new year.

ZaZ

434 发表于 2022-2-13 18:49
欢迎ZAZ，很喜欢你的战术，顺便问一下你的 blue 3.3 左右两个DW用什么样的球员比较好

Check this thread by @ykykyk05251:
https://www.playgm.cn/thread-943500-1-1.html

ZaZ

贝利人称小阿芒 发表于 2022-2-13 18:56
我有两个问题想问问：
1、为什么CA、PA（current ability、 potential ability）不高的迪马科（Federico D ...

Thanks!

1. Those two players you mentioned are better than Dimarco, his only advantage are Long Shots and Corner taking. The answer to your question is most likely just RNG (random factor), or it could be something related to hidden attributes (I didn't check who has higher consistency or important matches). It can also be that they often are getting the ball in a good shooting position, then Dimarco has the advantage by scoring more goals.

2. I couldn't understand your question. Do you mean RPM usually gets low score? That's fine, it gets lower score so his teammates can perform better. It's actually one of the most important players in the team, but sometimes it can get overwhelmed against teams with too many midfielders. (P.S.: When he gets overwhelmed like that, it usually opens space for his teammages to do well by the flanks.)

贝利人称小阿芒

ZaZ 发表于 2022-2-13 19:28
Thanks!

1. Those two players you mentioned are better than Dimarco, his only advantage are Lo ...

1.我会再对他（Dimarco）做更多的测试，因为现实中他在国际米兰的表现没能达到我的预期（虽然我并不是国际米兰的粉丝）。
2.是的，RPM的分数通常不高，特别是在低级别联赛，比如英甲（EFL League One）、英乙（EFL League Two）。是否可以认为，RPM对球员的CA或者说队伍的整体实力要求比较高呢？

ZaZ

贝利人称小阿芒 发表于 2022-2-13 20:41
1.我会再对他（Dimarco）做更多的测试，因为现实中他在国际米兰的表现没能达到我的预期（虽然我并不是国 ...

1. Yeah, if you do more tests with Dimarco, it's quite possible that he will perform worse than the other two. Think like Dimarco is a die with six sides, while the other two players are dices with eight sides. If you roll all of them, the D6 can get a score higher than both D8s, but in general rolling a D8 will get a higher average score than rolling a D6.

2. It's not about the attributes of RPM, but the place in the field he plays and what he is expected to do. He doesn't give many assists, scores goals, dribbles or tackles very often. His role is basically give passes to teammates so they are in a good position for dribbling or assisting. He does the pre-assist, which doesn't give him any boost to his score.

贝利人称小阿芒

ZaZ 发表于 2022-2-13 21:05
1. Yeah, if you do more tests with Dimarco, it's quite possible that he will perform worse than  ...

我突然悟了！评分并不代表一切，胜负才是比赛的关键，就像上次那篇关于“神经网络分析”的文章一样，它的分析目标是球员属性对胜负的影响，而不是评分的影响。
感谢你让我对这款游戏有了更深更透彻的认识，祝你生活愉快。

tenzxc

一个back button让我半小时的文字小时了，很难受。。。那就打中文了，辛苦你用翻译。
首先，我很好奇你你用什么风格制作你的战术，因为在我的理解里不同的默认风格有完全不同的传球盘带和进攻防守组织以及最重要的攻守转换方式，甚至包括角球的处理-即使都是传前点。我猜可能是链式防守或者灵活防反，因为你的早期作品游戏还没有高位压迫。这对我很重要。

tenzxc

其次，我想继续讨论前面提到的RPM。我最近有玩一个RPM的存档，有些认识不知道是否正确。第一，RPM在游戏里似乎只适合存在于灵活防反风格里，而灵活防反风格意味着对手一定要攻出来（NO BUS），即使在much higer 遭遇线的情况下。第二，RPM不一定要是领袖，但是其他中场最好不是组织型球员-我指的是球员特性（包括属性/习惯），即便他是个非常善于防守的球员。关于前面你们提到的受压迫的情况，我有两个方案，a增加/训练其他位置（比如CM训练WB，这不会增加CA，但是需要训练在没修改的情况下），b增加持球能力（平衡/强壮/跑位），虽然这种情况会出现跑到他位置的可能，而这种可能不是你想要的。在玩RPM之前非常期待，但是似乎没掌握一些技巧，如果你能给出你的建议我非常感谢

ZaZ

贝利人称小阿芒 发表于 2022-2-13 22:35
我突然悟了！评分并不代表一切，胜负才是比赛的关键，就像上次那篇关于“神经网络分析”的文章一样，它的 ...

It's exactly as you say. The best tactic isn't the one with the most possession, shots, player scores, passes or anything like that. It's simply the one that wins the opponent more often (or scores more points in a championship). All the rest is just flair for journalists and supporters.

ZaZ

tenzxc 发表于 2022-2-13 23:35
一个back button让我半小时的文字小时了，很难受。。。那就打中文了，辛苦你用翻译。
首先，我很好奇你你 ...

T: "A back button took me half an hour of text and it sucks. . . Then I will type in Chinese. It is hard for you to use the translation.
First of all, I'm curious what style you use to make your tactics, because in my understanding different default styles have completely different passing dribbling and attacking defense organization and the most important way of attacking and defending transition, even including the handling of corner kicks -Even if it's a pre-pass point. I'm guessing it could be chain defense or agile counter defense, because your early game doesn't have high post pressure yet. it is very important to me."

I'm not sure if I understood your question. Do you mean what style I choose before creating the tactic? I just pick "create custom tactic" and the formation, it comes empty then I add all instructions and set pieces (or I start from an older version of my tactics and modify from there).

T: "Second, I would like to continue the discussion of the aforementioned RPMs. I recently played with an RPM archive, and I don't know if it is correct. First, RPM seems to be only suitable for existence in the flexible anti-reverse style in the game, and the flexible anti-reverse style means that the opponent must attack (NO BUS), even in the case of a much higer encounter line. Second, RPM doesn't have to be a leader, but other midfielders are better off not playmakers - I mean player traits (including attributes/habits), even if he's a very defensive player. Regarding the pressure situation you mentioned earlier, I have two options, a increase/train other positions (such as CM training WB, this will not increase CA, but it needs to be trained without modification), b increase ball holding Ability (balance/strength/movement), although there is a possibility of running into his position in this case, which may not be what you want. Was looking forward to playing RPM but didn't seem to have some skills, if you can give your advice I would really appreciate it"

RPM is basically a playmaker without an assigned position, meaning it will roam all around the field to get in position for passes. That means it's a more attacking role when compared to a DLP, BWM or BBM, for example. The most similar to RPM is a BBM, except that those roam around the field to block opponent's space while RPM are trying to receive the ball in a position where they can be creative.

That being said, it's very important for a RPM to be hard worker, have mobility, good positioning and good passing.

tenzxc

第三，沿着上面RPM的思路，我想请教一下我最近玩的一个档。我想玩的一种风格是传球方式类似直传反击（较多情况的后场通过直传或者偶尔-在没有压迫情况下的RM/WB 持球推进，）在前场有序地打出传球跑位/小范围配合进攻（前场不设置组织角色，但是不可避免的需要使用AF-因为他是跑空当的终结者而不像是个单纯的抢点前锋，此外这个角色是游戏里遭遇线最高的角色）。但是我玩的最好情况是1000射门，130-140进球（包含接近20个角球），接近200个绝佳机会，27%传中成功率。临场指挥以及个人微调。RPM+CAR+2IFa+AM/APswitch+wb/cwbswich。基于快速防反制作的战术。我想提高我的进球，期望在160-180进球和创造力，当然200 goals in38 games是我最终目标。英超+best player/即便是调整球员相对属性情况下-接近完美球员。

我暂时评估其他可能因素有：我没选声望较高的球队，初始创建的战术风格，以及更衣室（这里提一句，我发现3个个绝对主力的表现好于4个主力轮换，在2IFA+AF阵型的情况下，其他情况应该一样）。

tenzxc

最后，我猜测你的战术有大部分是基于链式防守制作的，因为在我看来你的风格是尽量快速有效的组织对方进入我方半场，而不是在我方半场持球。其次你的战术进攻往往在进攻段发挥不出创造力，即便点上了more expressive，一方面是遭遇线的原因，另外一方面我觉得可能就是初始风格。而且我玩你的战术很多年（早些年），电脑最终大部分采用摆大巴或链式防守来进行比赛。
同时我也发现一个有趣的情况，这几年的电脑更快的采用玩家的比赛风格，而联赛表现也大幅度/快速地在积分榜表现出榜首球队的风格。比如我使用控球类战术取得好成绩时往往竞争对手是曼城，曼联常常在欧联杯区域之外。使用直传风格球队的时候南安普顿的表现非常好，曼城有时候会掉出欧联杯。而当我使用更多利身体型球员（最直观的攻防两端的后卫和前锋是力量型球员时）曼联会成为竞争对手。而使用你早期的战术（可能那时候还没有高位压迫风格）的时候，对手最终都是使用摆大巴或者链式防守-即使他的遭遇线和后防线都比较低。而这也造成了在进攻上只能通过定位球和ca赢得比赛。当然我个人非常喜欢你的战术，也花了很多时间用你的战术去游戏。期待你的feedback！

tenzxc

还有补充一点，我觉得我的战术进球少最重要的原因是没有使用最高的遭遇线，以及凶狠抢断。ps我从来不适用人盯人战术

tenzxc

ZaZ 发表于 2022-2-14 00:14
T: "A back button took me half an hour of text and it sucks. . . Then I will type in Chinese. It i ...

gotta ，但是我有一些疑惑，主要在关于训练和比赛的表现。因为通常情况下我找的教练的原则是基于比赛训练风格和战术阵型，包括进攻4231选择一个442直传方式的防守教练，通常这种情况防守会形成的442反击，即使我选择密集短传。这也适用门将教练。
空白的模式是不是比赛风格实际是采用混合npc教练员的比赛方式？因为玩家的很多比赛信息（包括宽度利用和灵活度等等）都是默认没有的。比如你的战术可能宽度拉开一点角球就进不去了，总是站在外侧一点。比如wm的跑位因为降低一档遭遇线而很难传出好的传中，或者说这种情况需要重新训练，或者说是这个球员的适应性不高？举例wm也是因为wm角色的特性使得创造机会的情况一般不受身体状态及压迫的影响。
其次空白的风格我一直存在疑问的地方是因为如我下面说的，不同的默认风格即使调整到一样的心态和防线高度后的防守方式完全不一样，那是否意味着我在空白风格下不同防线位置实际上是需要重新训练？

tenzxc

ZaZ 发表于 2022-2-14 00:14
T: "A back button took me half an hour of text and it sucks. . . Then I will type in Chinese. It i ...

感谢关于rpm的解释，我大概理解是持球型全能中场，同时是从后场就需要持球的全场唯一组织核心。我的问题是是否这个角色是否只适应于反击战术，或者说配置RPM，这个战术只能成为反击战术。同时我认为我的球员表现低于预期，你可以看下已下图片，我理想的 习惯表现为：shoot from distance,comes deep to get ball, distates tempo, like to switch ball to ohter flank.是不是习惯不适合角色，或者说有没有建议的习惯

tenzxc

sorry for the pic  

ZaZ

tenzxc 发表于 2022-2-14 00:43
最后，我猜测你的战术有大部分是基于链式防守制作的，因为在我看来你的风格是尽量快速有效的组织对方进入我 ...

I'm not quite sure if I understand what you are saying completely (mostly because of translation), but I can describe how my tactic plays, if you are talking about Blue 3.3.

Basically, my philosophy is about countering the opponent's counter-attack. That means when players lose possession, they will try to press immediately to get the ball and counter with high intensity. That's basically the essence of Gegenpressing, recovering the ball as close as possible to the opponent's goal so you can have better opportunities. You can obviously find lots about Gegenpressing on internet.

For that to happen in FM, team needs the instructions:
- Counter-Press
- Counter
- Press Much More Often
- Extremely High Intensity
- Much Higher Line of Engagement

Players also use Tackle Harder to increase chance to catch the ball in the opponent's side, and Take More Risks to make the counter-attack more direct. To make sure they shoot from positions with higher chance to score, they also have the instruction Shoot Less Often, as well as team instructions Work Ball Into Box and Low Crosses.

ZaZ

tenzxc 发表于 2022-2-14 01:33
gotta ，但是我有一些疑惑，主要在关于训练和比赛的表现。因为通常情况下我找的教练的原则是基于比赛训练 ...

T: "gotta , but I have some doubts, mainly about performance in training and competition. Because usually the principles of the coaches I look for are based on the game training style and tactical formation, including attacking 4231 and choosing a defensive coach with a 442 pass method. Usually, the defense will form a 442 counterattack in this case, even if I choose dense short passes. This also applies to goalkeeper coaches.
Does the blank mode actually use a mixed npc coach's game style? Because a lot of the player's game information (including width utilization and flexibility, etc.) is not available by default. For example, your tactics may widen a little corner and you won't be able to get in. Always stand a little on the outside. For example, wm's movement is difficult to pass a good cross because it lowers the first encounter line, or this situation needs to be retrained, or the player's adaptability is not high? For example, wm is also because the characteristics of the wm role make the situation of creating opportunities generally not affected by physical state and oppression.
Secondly, I have always had doubts about the blank style because, as I said below, even if different default styles are adjusted to the same mentality and defensive line height, the defensive methods are completely different. Does that mean that I have different defense lines under the blank style? Is the position actually in need of retraining?"

I want to ask you to write simple and short phrases, if possible, because the translations are really bad for long sentences. I can barely understand what the text above means.

ZaZ

tenzxc 发表于 2022-2-14 01:48
感谢关于rpm的解释，我大概理解是持球型全能中场，同时是从后场就需要持球的全场唯一组织核心。我的问题 ...

RPM excels in Gegenpressing because it's always seeking a good position to receive the ball, allowing him to quickly transition the ball to attack when you recover possession. They are less effective in systems with lower line of engagement or those that regroup after losing possession, because RPM would often be out of position, creating a vulnerability in defense.